The Grow Show: Business Growth Stories from the Frontlines

Stop Fixing What's Not Broken

• Scott Scully, Jeff Winters, Eric Watkins • Season 2 • Episode 45

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As companies grow and evolve, they face the challenge of integrating new talent without disrupting the processes that have proven successful. It's a delicate balance between welcoming fresh perspectives and guarding the core methodologies that have driven the company's progress. Newcomers may be inclined to initiate changes, often underestimating the complexity and effectiveness of existing systems. Therefore, it's crucial for leadership to scrutinize any proposed changes, demanding clear, undeniable evidence of their benefits. The goal is to foster an environment where innovation is valued, but not at the expense of the hard-earned efficiency and achievements of the company.

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Thanks for listening!

Unknown:

All these years

Scott Scully:

nothing could stop me. Welcome back to the gross show. The number one resource on the planet. If you are looking to grow your business, weekly conversations from the front lines, no textbook, no theory, actionable advice, stuff to make it just a little bit easier on your journey. I'm Scott's going. I'm with my partners in growth. Jeff winters and Eric Watkins. Guys ready for to rocket ready?

Jeff Winters:

Let's do it. Great episode coming.

Scott Scully:

Yeah, I feel it. I feel this one. I know that we say that a lot. But I'm kind of feel like this one's going to be one they're going to bookmark this might be the one and listen to over and over and over again.

Jeff Winters:

Is the holiday season. You got time to listen.

Scott Scully:

Right. All right, we're gonna head right into our sheriff of LinkedIn. I understand you have some you have some really good people to call out this week.

Jeff Winters:

I got great stuff to call out this week. We are headed for 2024. And we're ahead of you. This is your first stop shop for how can I help do the right things for my business in 2024? Because LinkedIn is already out the you know, LinkedIn has been talking about 2024 Since the beginning of 2023. Nobody's been doing 2020 for like LinkedIn, but we got you covered right here. Let's start with our first truth comes from Matt doin. And Matt says even if you're cutting sales budget in 2024, you should be upping your spend in enablement. Scratch that, especially if you're cutting sales budget in 2024, you should be upping your upping your sales spend in enablement. Sales Enablement will be the most valuable players on the sales team in 2024. sales operations will be a very close second, advanced teams are already forward positioning resources in these two areas. Matt, given great advice for 2024.

Scott Scully:

Read thinker,

Eric Watkins:

I think it's a truth. Like it's the truth. We're a little biased here, because it's literally what we do for a living. Yeah. But I think as you as things get more competitive, as budgets tighten, you need more pipeline. And if you're going to cut back on salespeople is essentially what he's saying. You can't just cut back in your overall spin, you got to replace that pipeline somehow. And I think the way I read that is, you know, if you have less sellers, but more pipeline for the same money you were doing before you're probably achieve your sales goals. That's

Scott Scully:

why I read it. Scott said the way you read further spending less, spending

Jeff Winters:

less on say, I think I think the idea there is that a lot of people are cutting back sales budget for whatever reason, whether it be conferences, trade shows people, unfortunately, whatever it is, if you're going to cut, don't cut evenly sales and sales enablement like cut, don't cut sales enablement.

Scott Scully:

Agree. And, and and don't cut. Because what you're doing is you are listening, and you are thinking that the world is caving in, and you're changing what you were doing before. And maybe you're maybe you're getting a little less result. So then you're scurrying and saying, oh my god, we gotta cut budget as opposed to looking at the budget where you're spending and just make sure that to retool a little bit and make it more impactful based on whatever situation you're in. There's nothing that salespeople and sales departments like more than watching the news and coming up with a reason why they're not going to hit goal, as opposed to there isn't, as opposed to, here's the current situation I'm in. And here's how I'm going to use that story in my sales process to win. So not only should you not cut back I just don't think you should cut back period. I think that you should full throttle, because everybody else is cutting back. And you should spend probably just as much on sales enablement as sales because it's super important and it's pretty hard to find salespeople that will actually want to cold call themselves.

Jeff Winters:

Speaking of a takes me into my it's a perfect transition to our next truth. Our next truth comes from below. But trolly below says this. I don't know a single elite seller that's ever comfortable with their pipeline. They're always looking for more. Even when they hit gold. They still want more. It's like an unhealthy paranoia that at any moment the bottom drops out, and there'll be left with nothing. It's a drive most sellers don't have but then again, most won't become elite. So I can assure you if you're serious about hitting your numbers consistently and unlocking life changing commissions, you need to be able to self source opera tuna T's below. Love that. Speaking right speaking right to the heart.

Eric Watkins:

Yeah, and I think he hits on the point though, that sales is never over sales isn't a destination, you are constantly starting over starting over. And if you don't have that philosophy, or approach of, I have to constantly add more to my pipeline, etc. You're gonna end up with the months where you don't sell any revenue. I love it.

Scott Scully:

I'm going back to sports again. The elite in sports. Put in more work. Yep. than those that are not elite, Michael Jordan. How many shots a day did he take? You know, I just And he took more shots in a game, right? You're gonna make more if you shoot more. I just don't get it. The entire planet is about slowing down and talking to less people. Don't agree with it at all.

Eric Watkins:

Do you think Jeff got into this gotta shave but not working out right every day? Yes.

Jeff Winters:

Do you want to know the secret? I'm looking at the camera from this odd angle that I hate.

Eric Watkins:

Once you just to camera, the camera adds 10 pounds. We understand the camera angle is you lost five with the flu your matter 15 down from what you'd look right now,

Scott Scully:

no matter what it looks like out there. Jeff's in amazing shape.

Jeff Winters:

Yeah, the most incredible stomach bug. I gotta tell you talk about jumpstart to your 2024 New Year's resolution, I

Eric Watkins:

could put it in a bottle itself.

Jeff Winters:

I drink it.

Scott Scully:

But not too much.

Jeff Winters:

All right. into our next to our lie to our lie. I was at Costco yesterday, and saw these two items for sale. A snow shovel cost 1999. And an electronic snow blower costs$800. The lesson I see here is laziness is 40 times more expensive than effort. Okay. All right. So I'm going to make I have to say this a lot. It's funny. It is funny. It is trying

Eric Watkins:

to be funny. Yeah,

Jeff Winters:

I don't know. It is funny. But here's why I think this is a lie. And here's why I think it's important. I think what's failing to be considered in this particular lie is the cost of your time. And I forget the cost of your time in snow shoveling versus snow blowing. But maybe it's in business as well. Don't Don't forget that in this world. Like how long is it going to take you to to snow blow the obviously I'm familiar with this. That's why I know the terminology. So to snow blow your your driveway or however long you're dry or whatever you're going to snow one would snow blow versus one is going to take you to shovel like there is an opportunity cost of time. And it's why outsourcing like it's why outsourcing can be such an effective thing. And I'm talking to you CEOs, and one person sales organizations or two person sales organizations. You have to think about what do you want to spend your time doing? Not just are you lazy or not, but what do you want to spend your time doing? And outsourcing because the cost of time is real so that it's funny, and I get it in the snow shovel metaphor, but I think there's something deeper. And that's why I think it's a lie. You got to consider the cost of your time.

Scott Scully:

Yep. It's 20 bucks to have a kid shovel your driveway in St. Louis. So you could have 40 snow shovels for that price, which is 10 years in St. Louis. Don't buy the snowblower don't but Snowball or the shovel. You don't kid will come with its own. You know

Eric Watkins:

how fun it is to see that snow flying out of the snowblower.

Jeff Winters:

You guys have totally missed it's worth it. Yeah, Mr. Point you lost

Eric Watkins:

me on this. I love the post though. Great posts a great post doesn't deserve jail.

Jeff Winters:

It's not jail. It's just the wrong it doesn't

Scott Scully:

it doesn't measure up. Yes, Mr.

Jeff Winters:

I worked backwards from the post because I liked it so much.

Eric Watkins:

How can I get weaseled? Yeah. The pictures great. Like I'm sitting right next to it. Oh, it's great. It's

Scott Scully:

so fun. Yeah. You somebody should look at their time and the cost of their Time and pour their time into something that is going to be more productive. Thank you. Yes. Which is cold calling being

Eric Watkins:

if you're gonna go shovel your driveway if you're a sales hit just cold call

Scott Scully:

if you're a salesperson, outsource the shoveling of your driveway and get your ass back on the phone, we

Eric Watkins:

only called you should be is calling

Unknown:

that's a good shirt. I was saying that is a really good for like

Jeff Winters:

out and this is self promotional fine. But outsource it like if you're a CEO and you're doing all the selling and doing all the opera like outsource the cold going outsource the cold calling. Because you're you do the clothes like that's the other point I'm making here.

Scott Scully:

Do you think I could get a sweatshirt with that on it for today? I'd have some snowflakes with the only cold you should be the call. I'm more than that tonight. There's got to be a screen print place somewhere. All right, great, nice job sheriff. You don't feel good about that session,

Jeff Winters:

I thought it was great. I enjoy it,

Scott Scully:

we didn't give you the action. Right?

Jeff Winters:

Sorry, part of this is you guys got to play along next week. Okay,

Scott Scully:

this is a, this is a big one. And some of you out there are are not, you didn't realize this yet. But you're going to some of you have realized this. And when I talk about it, you're literally going to be shaking your head and saying, Amen, that frickin happens. I need to do something about it. So here we go. In the beginning stages of your organization, you try a lot of things, you make a lot of mistakes. And if you continue to make it to the next year, and then the year after that, you've put things in place processes reporting, there could be a lot of things a way in which you do something. Now you put that in place, because you did try a lot of things. And then you eventually landed on something that works. Okay, the larger that you get, as you get new managers and new people they're going to come in, and a lot of them are going to be really talented, and have a track record of success somewhere else. And they're going to come in, and they're going to look at what you have in place. And 99 out of 100 times, they're going to want to change it. Okay, if it works, if it is in place for a reason. Just because you want to let somebody have their say, because they are talented, there are things that you should not change, you should not change a significant piece of your business a process or report, unless someone can prove to you beyond a shadow of a doubt why that should be changed, and how it's going to make the business better. So the larger you get, the more you will attract talented people. And the more often you will be in conversations about why something should change. And actually, it's worse than that, you're gonna come into a room and realize something that, you know, a lot of people put a lot of effort into putting in place is no longer there. Because somebody else had a different idea of how it should be done. But it wasn't necessarily a better idea. So that makes sense. So I'm changing just because I want it to be my way. Now, larger organizations, you don't get to do that at a fortune 500 company. Or you probably don't get to do that at 100 $200 million company. The mistake that is where it's going to happen a lot, is that a 10 $20 million company where you're still sizable enough that you went through the exercise of building some important infrastructure, and it was a total pain in the ass. And then you're going to have some talent come in and change it. And there's going to be enough change where eventually you're going to be off the rails. And because you thought about that process, how it tied into other processes, how it impacted other parts of the organization. And the person that you brought in might be in one segment one department making some changes, not realizing, you know, how that impacts others. You could be a report, someone could change your report. And maybe I'll use myself as an example, maybe in I had an implementation report and there was something that that I look at, let's say from an how implementation impacts retention or or, or productivity in the service that we're providing and then all of a sudden implementation report is changed. And then reporting that helped me at a higher level from a business perspective gone. So a lot of you, this isn't going on yet how you are the process, but I'm telling you, the larger you get, you're going to, you're going to try something 10 different ways to finally land on a process that works. Just because you have a talented person that joins the team that does deserve their say, don't make it in that a change should go through a process. And it should be harder than hell to do unless it's absolutely beyond a shadow of a doubt, a better report a better process, a better way to run your business. And I this is one of the biggest 50 per 50s. I'm glad to be out early for the people that haven't been through it. Yeah, don't do it.

Eric Watkins:

Yeah, two things come to mind here. First thing is are within a science. So don't discredit how much flexibility there actually is already in your current systems running it the way you have defined. So the science is the box. And then your art is how you fulfill within that box. And there is a lot of room within that without having to change everything and go through that headache and pain and adjustment, just to return back to normal or even worse. And then the second thing would be when people bring you new ideas, which happens almost every single day, get really good at, you know, understanding where they're coming from and why they're bringing it up, but then say, okay, if this were to go terribly wrong, why would that be? And do they have a legitimate answer? If not, they haven't thought through it fully. They've just focused on why they love this new idea and why it's great. And I think when people think through, okay, this is why it would go terribly, it makes them realize all the elements that get impacted when you make a change. And then it really puts into perspective if that's worth it or not. But like Scott said, maybe it is a great idea. And you don't want to turn down all great ideas, run it through a process, see if it works, make sure that it works. And then you make the change the

Jeff Winters:

hard part, especially with and I bet at Google, this is like impossible. I have no clue. I would love to know how they manage this. Google has been in business for two decades, three decades, however long it's been. They've probably tried whatever you're proposing at some point, they probably tried it, maybe it failed. Maybe it succeeded. And that trial probably added up to part of the rationale behind whatever the hell you're currently doing. And so it's tough when you have new people come in. And Scott, I know this is part of your frustration mine to where they go, Well, we should do this. It's like, well, we checked. In theory, that sounds good. But we already tried that. And how do you drive down three or four levels? We tried that six years ago? And that is frustrating, because it's like, Okay, now we're just gonna go do something that we already did. Because in theory, it sounds good. I know, it sounded good. We thought it sounded good, too. That's why we did try it. And I think making like good a rigid processes, and then be air to your point like good thorough planning, or proposing as as part of it, and then making a chart hard to change. Because then once it's hard to change, you'll figure that stuff out as you're going through that change process.

Scott Scully:

And I don't know, as a leader, being familiar with that segment of the business and being in constant communication, and probably also having an idea of things that other things that could be worked on that might even be more impactful and just like asking questions, why? Why isn't what we're doing working? Why isn't that report? Good enough? What if you looked at it this way? Like, have you done this? Or is there something like if we didn't change anything? Is there something within what we're doing that you could zero in on that would have a huge impact? Part of the overall process and making part of like, or the art of how you're running? I? I was when you guys were talking? I was thinking about going through the Anheuser Busch brewery tour. Right. It's fantastic. They have a way that they do it. But each individual that that leads to tours have different personalities. Yeah, all the same things are getting hit. They're going to the same spots and order. It's a consistent experience. The individual tour guides, one might have worked there one might be lived by the brewery for 30 years and talks about the neighborhood but still walks you through the brewery talks about the brew beer brewing process and like at companies larger Companies with set process there's really good managers really really good standout managers and then some that aren't as good that are working in the same process and they figured out how to live in that landscape and put their nuances into it and succeed just don't just don't allow change just because someone talented comes in and just wants to change all of the things so that that has their name on it.

Eric Watkins:

Yep.

Scott Scully:

Beat that one to death to didn't we good?

Jeff Winters:

No change for changes sake.

Eric Watkins:

Yep.

Jeff Winters:

That's good. Put that on T shirt to change

Eric Watkins:

the way you change don't change

Jeff Winters:

put that on the put that on T shirt. That'd be really good to be

Scott Scully:

the only change that should be in your pockets to change you can spend Yes.

Jeff Winters:

Can we change you should have is cold calls.

Scott Scully:

If you're going to change something, change the amount of dials you're making. All right, Eric, you have another gym. Another gym and mining for growth cool

Eric Watkins:

there we go. Okay, a lot of pickaxe going on. Lot of maybe too much pickaxe, maybe too much pickaxe, maybe we'll we'll cut back on that. Today, we're gonna talk about is how many conversations it takes to get an appointment. So we looked at 200,000 appointments for this sample size. And of the 200,000 appointments, we looked at how many what we call here is Katie M pitches, key decision makers pitched to be able to set an appointment. And typically what that is, is a key decision maker actually led us into a conversation. And so I think in going through this data, it highlighted a couple important things that I want to hit on. So first, I'll go through the numbers that we can talk about it. On the first conversation that we hold with a KTM out of all of our total appointments on that first conversation, we set 58.5% of our appointments, which is actually a surprising stat for me, I would have thought it would have been a little lower than that. But a lot of our appointments are set on that first conversation. On the second conversation, we have 24.81% of our appointments. So between those first two calls, that's almost 82% of our appointments. And then on the third call, it's almost it's 9.44% of our total appointments. And then I just put grouped, four calls in up. And that's 7.24% of our appointments. So the couple things that stood out to me from here, first thing, that's a lot of appointments in your first pitch with a key decision maker. So that first time you talk to a decision maker is really, really important. And you want to make sure that it's just not another call in your queue, you want to make sure you're always ready and prepared to get that key decision maker on the phone. And I think a lot of times you just think, Oh, well, I'll just talk to him here. And then I'll get the appointment later. And yes, that does happen. But I do think that first pitch is obviously very important. Second thing, if you stop calling after somebody tells you no, you will set 42 You will not set appointments with 42% of the market. And I think that happens, you load in a big list, you call through it, someone says absolutely not, I'm not interested. And you're gonna miss out on 42% of the appointments. And oftentimes, you're one more conversation away from 24% more appointments. So having those conversations is really important. And the third thing I want to call out is that within these records, there was a lot of what we call contact calls, which is where we got the key decision maker on the phone, but they didn't let us into a conversation. Now that could be as cordial as, hey, I'm in the middle of something I can't talk right now, or that could be a screw off, and they hang up on us. So I think it's important that there's there's more touches within this, but ultimately conversations. That's how it broke down. And just because somebody hangs up on you, or just because they say now's not a good time. It doesn't mean that you should stop until they tell you do not ever call me again, which obviously you should honor what they're saying. But ultimately, you should you should continue to, to attack and have these conversations. So I thought this was really good insight.

Jeff Winters:

Yeah, I do too. I think, Eric, what would you say the main like the main takeaway there for our people.

Eric Watkins:

Okay. I think the main takeaway is be prepared on the first pitch. And I think people are doing their sales development in different ways and having some people intro and then hand it off to somebody and I think there's there Just a lot of value in that first pitch. And then the second thing is outside of that when somebody tells you no, there's still 42% more appointments to come. So of all of our appointments 42% are going to have are going to basically start after somebody tells us no or not right now.

Jeff Winters:

So that's my biggest takeaway is Yeah, but yeah, I'm interested. But this Yeah, I'm interested. But that I mean, I heard I think I've mentioned this on our on this podcast. We had a client we scheduled 400 meetings, if we had stopped after the fourth dial of those 400. How many would we have scheduled? I think it was 78. Yeah, that's crazy.

Eric Watkins:

That is crazy. That's a crazy. There's tons of dials going in to have and like getting to this actual conversation. Yeah, getting

Jeff Winters:

the actual number, but but still, okay. I just think it illustrates the point, like just because someone says no, or Yeah, but that's the beginning, not the end. That's my takeaway. It's the beginning, it's not the end. And people will immediately in their systems. And this to me becomes a systems issue to people put them in some segregated area of their system, never to be called again. And then years later, they'll read a LinkedIn post go, you know, where you should go get your leads for December, go to your old people that have said, No, well, hey, get those out of the closet? No, they need to be in your process all the time. Yep. That's my big takeaway from it.

Scott Scully:

One of the stats I looked at the other day was like, over 60% of decision makers said, No, four times before, they said yes to their current vendor. So I love this. I want to, I want to, I have an important point here. And I know that most of the audience is going to disagree with me. But I'm just gonna go back to saying, I've been selling for 30 years, we're a sales organization, we've always had high growth, here's why I'm saying this, this matters. And this backs up what you're saying, which is your pitch better be good. Okay. And this is why I'm gonna say salespeople have a lot of pitches. Okay. And I'm even going to say, which is a total contradiction to what you're hearing in the marketplace, that you should get so narrow, that you should only talk to the people that are willing to buy, you will not have enough at bats. I am so serious. I'm serious to the point where I'd have a couple of have less qualified pitches, you know, in the day, so that I hammer, the third one, so I am so prepared. It's like, how does at bats not manner? Like if we set that high of a percentage, somebody better be good. Like, if you're on the phone, and you're driving in? Are you getting right on the phone? And you're you're ready? Or are you literally working on your pitch in the car, on your way to work? Like, are you up? Do you have your coffee? Have you been up for an hour? Have you exercised? Are you prepared? Do you know your client so that when you do get somebody on the phone? you nail it? Yep. But in the whole sales process in general, I do think there's such a thing to say, nobody's a waste of time to talk to, you could always ask for referrals. And worst case scenario. It's your freakin practice. So that in two hours when you got the real big dog that you're talking to, you kill them. Yep. I couldn't believe in that anymore. And most people in the world would say I'm effing crazy. But what do I know?

Jeff Winters:

I don't think most people would say that. I think

Scott Scully:

they would. Oh, you're gonna do two pitches today of people you couldn't sell like, in the next three months? Yes, I am. Oh, FAK. Matter of fact, I absolutely am. Yeah. That's not what I thought you meant. No, that is what I mean.

Jeff Winters:

No, I don't think people would disagree with that. I don't think people think you're crazy. And

Scott Scully:

by the way, that's why when I'm making calls, like, Bob's not there, okay, gotta go. Like, Oh, all right. get transferred to sales manager or CEO or someone else and it's like, Hey, here's what I'm doing. I'm pitching, pitching, pitching, pitching, right? I'm having conversations. I'm asking questions. I'm worst case scenario, every time I pick up the phone, I want to get past the gatekeeper and talk to somebody. And when I talk to him, I'm, by the way, I'm going to ask the gatekeeper questions. And I'm going to say, well, maybe I should talk to so and so. Then I'm going to go there. And I'm going to work on pitching, pitching, pitching because three hours into the day, I've had enough conversations where when I actually land on the decision maker. Yep, I'm gonna, I'm gonna kill him. My close rate is going to be 30 40%. If I get him on the phone, you

Eric Watkins:

know, what was interesting. I actually looked at closed business too. And our our highest close rate of business comes when we've had four more pitches. And I think part of that comes from, you know, if you if you compare to the opposite of this approach, that is I'm going to load in a list. I call it calm. But at the receptionist answers and says, No, we're not interested, we have a company we work with, okay? cross them off my list, follow up with the next person. So all these people that we've had to pitch multiple times is just less and less companies are making it to those records. So then when we ultimately get in front of them, it's less competition. You're

Jeff Winters:

saying pitches. Yeah. calls with a Yeah, conversation conversation. Yeah.

Scott Scully:

I think what you said, right there is important, though, because it's like Bob's not here, we're working with somebody. Maybe the gatekeeper tells you that get transferred to somebody else, lay a good voicemail. Yeah, or have a pitch with somebody else or

Eric Watkins:

get some information. So when you do have that pitch, you have the information. People say

Scott Scully:

cold calling doesn't work, because they rip 100 dials, and they're getting an automated attendant and saying, oops, or they're like getting a gatekeeper and they can't get through. They don't think about the questions, they could ask the gatekeeper, they don't think about getting transferred to somebody other than the decision maker. They don't think about leaving voicemails, like take advantage of every single dial and you will love the results that come out of cold calling. And then you'll be having so many conversations that it goes into your deal when you finally have a pitch. Right? And I

Eric Watkins:

think all that being said, if you have to be cold, mega calling.

Jeff Winters:

Trying to think of that. Nick asks, Can we pick

Scott Scully:

good stuff, Jeff,

Jeff Winters:

I want to time just so to start I'm looking at the nutrition facts on Eric's drink. It's got 42 grams of carbohydrates in that bottle. Lord,

Eric Watkins:

how's that impossible?

Jeff Winters:

That's like your entire I probably have been in a tub. A loaf of bread. two loaves of bread. How do you do that? How do you come back from that? But

Eric Watkins:

they have the sugars underneath that. The rest of your day when the sugars are kind of indented is it is is a sugar or carbohydrate

Jeff Winters:

bottle out of here.

Scott Scully:

I know he's he's being healthy with the sweet tears. What I would say you might as well have this Yeah.

Eric Watkins:

Wait 65 grams of sugar. Yes, that's like that's like this, the whole thing being filled. Everybody

Jeff Winters:

wave goodnight, Eric. See him again on Tuesday. I know where I'm gonna see him.

Scott Scully:

Oh, yeah. Danny's

Jeff Winters:

Nice, nice. Let's talk competitive deals. I think probably like No, like no time in history, probably many of you are facing more and more and more competitive deals either because the number of deals in your market that are going on in a given month or quarter is shrinking or the number of competitors out there is growing. It's just getting easier to become a competitor with irrespective, largely irrespective of your business. Because of the the intrusion of technology in certain places, just making things and processes easier knowledge is easier to find. So I think a lot of us are finding inbound deals, a lot of us are finding ourselves in more competitive deals. And I just want to give you my framework for how to handle competitive deals. And for me, it comes down to DCI determined compare and influence. So here's here's the way I think about it when I'm in a competitive situation. The first thing I have to do is determined if I am in a competitive situation, because the worst thing that can happen is you lose a deal or a sales rep loses a deal. And you didn't know you were competing against someone else. And that happens far more often than you would think. And you don't even know it. So the first thing you have to do is determine whether or not you're in a competitive deal. And everything underlying this everything that overlays what I'm saying comes down to being trusted and non threatening. You have to be trusted and non threatening. So you got to tease out if they're looking at any other vendors for this. And there's a couple of ways to do that. And one question you might ask is okay, I look, obviously you're you're trying to solve this particular problem? How are you? How are you going about thinking about solving it? Okay, well, we're looking at you and Okay, are you looking at any other potential solutions? Notice, I didn't say any other vendors, I just said any other potential solutions, which doesn't bring about like, Oh, I'm going to look at, yeah, I'm comparing you to another vendor. It could be Yeah, I'm looking at a different way to solve this problem, but it still is gonna get you exactly what you want. So are you looking at any other potential solutions? This will help you also, if you're starting to get a little itchy, you might say, Hey, are you looking at any other vendors in the space to solve the problem? Once you find out that they are, the next thing you need to do is you need to have them compare and contrast you. You got to hear from them. Where are you winning? And where are you losing? And this is where people get real Shy. They don't want to ask this question, but you must ask this question. So when they go, Yeah, you know, we're also looking at vendor B. Say, Oh, interesting. You know, maybe I've heard of him. Maybe I haven't. And I'd say well, I just said, so how do we how do we stack up? Like how would you compare and contrast our two solutions? And then you got to get that out of them you got to get where are you winning? And where are you losing and there may be a secondary or follow up question somebody wants. So you first you determine are we competing, then you get a compare and contrast from the prospect, and then you have to influence and then you have to influence them. And it's hard, because you are influencing them as a 100% unbiased party, you are trying to persuade them, that you to go with you, as a person with a complete vested interest in this idea. So it is so hard to appear on bias, but that is your job, your job is to appear unbiased. And so and I've given a couple of different talk tracks, I'm not going to necessarily go into the talk track. But one way that I've tried to appear unbiased and this is a tactic is I will list other vendors for them to go talk to instead of the one they're thinking about, I will give them other vendors in our space for them to go talk to other than the one they're thinking about. And there's talk tracks and nuance in between, and maybe in a subsequent episode, we'll go into it, but I just wanted to share that little nugget. Because more often than not, they're not going to go talk to those vendors. And because they're not gonna, like want to revive an entire process. But it's going to make you feel unbiased as a consultant. And I think that's my that's my tip. Today. It's, it's first determine if you're competing, second, ask the question to compare and contrast. And third, as you're giving an unbiased opinion, give them a couple of vendors to check out.

Eric Watkins:

You don't need to go with us. But just don't go with ABC Company. Go talk to blah, blah, blah, go talk

Jeff Winters:

to these other vendors. It gives the you are being unbiased and gives you the appearance of being unbiased. That's my that's my two cents.

Scott Scully:

What do you think when someone hears that they're looking at other potential vendors? What do you think the typical salesperson says?

Jeff Winters:

I think they say nothing.

Eric Watkins:

Versus Well, we're better than them at the Yeah, I

Scott Scully:

think the or worse, I think they bash them.

Jeff Winters:

A close second would be I don't know if it's bash. I think it's more of like, we're looking at ABC. I think what Eric said is right, yeah. Oh, well, we do this and this and this, and this, and this and this. And then they get off the call and they go, Well, you how'd that go? Great. I fucking smoked

Eric Watkins:

and crushed that call.

Scott Scully:

So not only find out if you're in a competitive situation, but make them tell you how they see it. Yeah. I mean, if which is good, because then you know where they're at? And they will tell you, then you could correct if they're not seeing how you're different.

Eric Watkins:

I'm not so convinced if you wouldn't be more successful than the this is why we're better or bashing them than just being like, they're really good. Yeah. I'm glad you're, you're checking out. There's some really good things about that company. What did you like most about them? What do you like us? You know, you're obviously on the phone with me. Would you like more about us? Right? Oh, well, yeah, they're good at that. But I they just don't do this, this and this. And if they say it, I think that's the key. You got to get the prospect to tell you why you're better than them. Just think it's more powerful.

Jeff Winters:

Yeah. And I didn't go into all the questions, q&a that goes on in there. I completely agree. But you're right. It's like, the game really begins. Okay, I've gotten you to tell me that's good. I've gotten you to compare and contrast. That's good. Now the game begins I need to, I need to somehow persuade you having a fully 100% vested interest in me that the stuff you're saying about them being better than us is either incorrect or not as important as you think it is. Yeah, it's tough trick to turn.

Eric Watkins:

But you make a great point. Your first step you got to determine like how many people just have no idea that they're in a competitive situation whether it's versus another company or versus the the dollars that you're going after being used in a different way. Like it's really good point. Good stuff. Thank you. Tales from sales.

Jeff Winters:

Go deep there.

Eric Watkins:

Yeah. Should we give the people better than the pickaxe

Scott Scully:

crossing? Crossing sounds Yeah. Okay. You know where we're headed? Yeah. Better than to do

Eric Watkins:

as the self proclaimed people's champ we're going to head into to do or not to do we need a pole? Yeah, we need a pole. We need a pole for what I don't know

Scott Scully:

just hopefully so they pick another section so I don't know so arrogant about

Eric Watkins:

this. i It's not about me. It's about the people. That's all I can say is isn't a me thing. They happen to really like the section I run but I run it for the people. It's their section

Scott Scully:

Reppert you say it's about the people but you really seem like you. Wait

Jeff Winters:

till the microphones are off.

Eric Watkins:

Me. Okay. You should hear him. All right. They're waiting. They're waiting. We have a wedding coming up. And Jeff's brothers getting married. And he is getting married on New Year's Eve. Huh New Year's Eve weddings very interesting. Very interesting takes out their New Year's Eve weddings. Jeff will let you start. Should you do them or not doing?

Jeff Winters:

I think we have unanimity around the table, which is a bummer. I'm A I. I love it. I love New Year's Eve weddings. Yeah. I love New Year's Eve wedding. Because I like most of the population. I think New Year's Eve is generally overrated and don't have anything to do. And then you layer on the kids. And that's a whole other dimension of, you know, pretending it's New Year's at 930. Which is not fun, you know? And then I'm in bed at 11. So this gives me this gives me the flexibility like have a no guilt babysitter. I'm out I can hang. I dig it. I think it's I think it is now I will say I think it is the only holiday that is acceptable to have a wedding on. None of the other ones. None of the other acceptable but I'm very proud New Year's Eve wedding. Scott. Well,

Scott Scully:

we were talking about this earlier, and I was having kind of a initial reaction. And then I was like, wait a minute, and we talked about it. You're always thinking about something fun to do. You want it to be safe. You want to be around the people that that you want to be around, you're always wondering, Am I in? Am I out? What food am I going to get? How we're going to celebrate when it hits New Year's and then I'm just thinking, this is outstanding, right? And talk about an ease and planning a wedding because you'd be you'd have the toast at midnight and you're just like it would be so cool to plan the things leading up to midnight and, and that and then the events the next day with football games and people could get together and watch games together and have an incredible like family New Year's Day. I actually love it. In fact, maybe I'll have

Jeff Winters:

100 Is this breaking news?

Scott Scully:

My Mina you know, I have get there's another 50% That has to be here.

Jeff Winters:

But I liked that. If you sent me this. I'm

Scott Scully:

gonna have I'm gonna have a family wedding, but we're gonna have like a party. Why wouldn't I have the party?

Eric Watkins:

And why wouldn't you do it on Jeff's brothers?

Scott Scully:

I'm talking about down the road. Just

Jeff Winters:

these days you're gonna have Okay, all right.

Eric Watkins:

I like it. I am a big fan of it. I am a big fan of it because I don't like getting dressed up and I really don't like doing fun things. So if I can knock out one more night a year where I don't have to do that. That's great dressed up

Jeff Winters:

for a wedding. Eric, I don't know what weddings you're familiar with. But that's you get dressed up for weddings. I'm

Eric Watkins:

saying instead of having to go to a wedding and New Years, I am combining that into one event. One event. Okay. One night I had to dress up one night I have to have fun digging. Yeah. It's Jeff fall.

Jeff Winters:

If you have a family wedding does that mean Eric and I aren't going to be able to speak that's all I'm thinking about.

Scott Scully:

Yeah. are going to have like us and kids and parents. Siblings when you

Jeff Winters:

say us my wife is that us?

Scott Scully:

No No but then going to have a party. Oh they're in that's where things like

Jeff Winters:

that could occur. Okay, the masses.

Scott Scully:

I mean, I'm I'm willing to you know, do a smaller gathering to get in trouble and do speeches.

Jeff Winters:

Okay, just want to say a few

Scott Scully:

words but I do like the New Year's Eve

Eric Watkins:

thing. Yeah, that's good idea.

Scott Scully:

I really like it and we all agree and that's not that much fun. Yeah. Yeah.

Eric Watkins:

New Year's Eve is overrated for sure. It's no good. Yeah. Jomo, Joy Of Missing Out. That's what I have.

Scott Scully:

I actually like New Year's Day. I love New Year's Day.

Eric Watkins:

Yeah.

Scott Scully:

All day. Sweatpants. Way too much food. Way too much booze. Not enough football. Yeah. That's right the day. That's the day.

Jeff Winters:

It's a great day. Not happen on that day.

Scott Scully:

All right. More good stuff. Great. You've got a takeaway or two. Thanks for listening as always, and happy holidays.

Eric Watkins:

Happy holidays. Let's

Jeff Winters:

grow. Let's grow. Let's grow.

Unknown:

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